Pesto protocol proposals
Most of today and yesterday I've spent thinking about the dynamic update model and protocol. I certainly don't have all the details pinned down, let alone any implementation, but I have come to some conclusions. # Shadow forward table On further consideration, I think this is a bad idea. To avoid peer visible disruption, we don't want to destroy and recreate listening sockets that are associated with a forward rule that's not being altered. Doing that with a shadow table would mean we'd need to essentially diff the two tables as we switch. That seems moderately complex, and kind of silly when then client almost certainly have created the shadow table using specific adds/removes from the original table. # Rule states / active bit I think we *do* still want two stage activation of new rules: if the first stage fails we're guaranteed we can roll back with no peer visible consequences. The second stage (the actual bind()s and listen()s) doesn't have that property, but that's unavoidable. To implement that, I think each rule should have an "active" bit. Or, at least an active bit - it's possible that might not be enough, but we could extend it to a state field, loosely analagous to the state field in flow table entries. But let's assume just the active bit, until/unless a case shows up where it's insufficient. Entries are always inserted in inactive state. Entries must be moved to inactive state before deletion. fwd_listen_sync() would ignore inactive entries. Turning the active flag on triggers the actual bind() / listen() calls, but requires no rearrangement of the fwd table or socket array. Turning it off close()s the associated sockets, but again requires no rearrangement of the data structures. # Tentative client operations ## INSERT Parameters: rule specification + rule index Returns: error status Inserts the new rule (inactive) at the given index (moving later rules, if necessary). Fails with no effect, for a bad index or if there's no room in the table or socket array. Does *not* check for conflicts with other rules. NOTE: moving rules could mean thousands of epoll_ctl() calls to adjust rule indices. We don't expect those to fail, but if they did, what do we do? ## DELETE Parameters: rule index Returns: error status Deletes the given inactive rule (moving later rules, if necessary). Fails with no effect if it's a bad index, or the given rule is active. NOTE: As for INSERT ## ACTIVATE Parameters: rule index Returns: error status Enables the rule, bind()ing all the necessary listening sockets. Fails with no effect if the rule conflicts with another active rule. Completes, even if some bind()s fail (see later for handling of this). ## DEACTIVATE Parameters: rule index Returns: error status Disables the rule, close()ing any listening sockets. Fails with no effect for bad index or an already inactive rule. ## STATUS Parameters: rule index Returns: active/inactive bit + possible metadata Indicates whether the rule is currently active. Could also give limited metadata about the rule (see below for possible use in bind() error reporting). ## READ Parameters: rule index Returns: rule specification, or error code Reads out the rule spec and returns it. Fails for bad index. To dump the whole table, the client can READ each slot starting from 0, until it gets an error. # Suggested client workflow I suggest the client should: 1. Parse all rule modifications 2. INSERT all new rules -> On error, DELETE them again 3. DEACTIVATE all removed rules -> Should only fail if the client has done something wrong 4. ACTIVATE all new rules -> On error (rule conflict): DEACTIVATE rules we already ACTIVATEd ACTIVATE rules we already DEACTIVATEd DELETE rules we INSERTed 5. Check for bind errors (see details later) If there are failures we can't tolerate: DEACTIVATE rules we already ACTIVATEd ACTIVATE rules we already DEACTIVATEd DELETE rules we INSERTed 6. DELETE rules we DEACTIVATEd -> Should only fail if the client has done something wrong DEACTIVATE comes before ACTIVATE to avoid spurious conflicts between new rules and rules we're deleting. I think that gets us closeish to "as atomic as we can be", at least from the perspective of peers. The main case it doesn't catch is that we don't detect rule conflicts until after we might have removed some rules. Is that good enough? # Bind error handling Note, in the below I'm considering pasta/passt's command line handling and conf path as a client rather than part of the backend. The distinction weak and non-weak entries is a bit clunky. How many failures is too many is kind of a question for the client, not the backend. So I'm suggesting we remove that concept from the backend. ACTIVATE completes even if some or all binds fail. However, we keep a count of how many sockets we got a bind() or listen() failure for in the rule, and it can be retrieved with STATUS. That lets the client make a decision as to whether to live with it or roll back as best it can. A client could also potentially poll later to see if some failures resolved themselves (we now reattempt bind()s on every fwd_listen_sync()). NOTE: the meaning of that count is pretty straightforward with regular rules, but with SCAN rules, we'd have to be more careful. # Concurrent updates I suggest we prevent concurrent updates by only allowing one client to connect to the control socket at a time. # Possible tweaks Not sure if these are improvements or not, but they're options to consider. ## Rule conflicts Currently fwd_rule_add() checks for rules with conflicts and rejects them. We can't really report that at INSERT, because we could get a bogus conflict with a rule we intend to DEACTIVATE/DELETE. But reporting at ACTIVATE is also a bit clunky. This could potentially be sidestepped by removing the notion of rule conflicts entirely. Instead overlapping rules are simply allowed, and the first rule to match a flow wins. ## Rollback in backend The proposal above has rollback essentially handled by the client. We could instead do it in the backend. - Instead of a single active bit, each rule has an "active now" and "active future" bit - On client connect, all active future bits are set equal to active now bits - INSERT adds a rule with active now false and active future true - If we conflict check, we check only against active future rules - DELETE clears the active future bit - ACTIVATE/DEACTIVATE no longer exist - ROLLBACK deletes all !active now rules and sets active future bits to active now bits again - COMMIT does the bind()s and close()s and on success, sets active now bits to active future bits. On failure... it's fairly complex, we'd need to think about it ## Persistent rule IDs Proposal above uses raw indices in the table to identify rules, which means INSERT and DELETE change the numbers of other rules. That in turn requires a bunch of epoll_ctl()s to update existing sockets. Here's one way we could avoid some of that with a persistent rule ID: - Each rule has an ID (say a u32), supplied by the client at INSERT - Rules still apply in ID order, so the order matters, but not the exact values - INSERT to an existing rule ID is not permitted - you must DELETE first Internally we still store the table packed, but sorted by ID. We could look up rule by ID either with a binary search, or maybe a radix lookup table. If we reduced the ID to a u16 (or so) we could potentially use a single level lookup table. I suspect binary search might be faster than a lookup table anyway, because of dcache impact. So, we still to memmove() things about for INSERT, and maybe update the lookup table, but that's relatively easy. epoll data holds the persistent ID, so that doesn't need to be altered. Clients (including the internal conf path) could choose to leave gaps in the IDs to leave space for future inserts. And/or certain ranges could be reserved by convention for different purposes. -- David Gibson (he or they) | I'll have my music baroque, and my code david AT gibson.dropbear.id.au | minimalist, thank you, not the other way | around. http://www.ozlabs.org/~dgibson
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:28:30 +1100
David Gibson
Most of today and yesterday I've spent thinking about the dynamic update model and protocol. I certainly don't have all the details pinned down, let alone any implementation, but I have come to some conclusions.
# Shadow forward table
On further consideration, I think this is a bad idea. To avoid peer visible disruption, we don't want to destroy and recreate listening sockets
(Side note: if it's just *listening* sockets, is this actually that bad?)
that are associated with a forward rule that's not being altered.
After reading the rest of your proposal, as long as:
Doing that with a shadow table would mean we'd need to essentially diff the two tables as we switch. That seems moderately complex,
...this is the only downside (I can't think of others though), and I don't think it's *that* complex as I mentioned, it would be a O(n^2) step that can be probably optimised (via sorting) to O(n * log(m)) with n new rules and m old rules, cycling on new rules and creating listening sockets (we need this part anyway) unless we find (marking it somewhere temporarily) a matching one...
and kind of silly when then client almost certainly have created the shadow table using specific adds/removes from the original table.
...even though this is true conceptually, at least at a first glance (why would I send 11 rules to add a single rule to a table of 10?), I think the other details of the implementation, and conceptual matters (such as rollback and two-step activation) make this apparent silliness much less relevant, and I'm more and more convinced that a shadow table is actually the simplest, most robust, least bug-prone approach. Especially:
# Rule states / active bit
I think we *do* still want two stage activation of new rules:
...this part, which led to a huge number of bugs over the years in nft / nftables updates, which also use separate insert / activate / commit / deactivate / delete operations. It's extremely complicated to grasp and implement properly, and you end up with a lot of quasi-diffing anyway (to check for duplicates in ranges, for example). It makes much more sense in nftables because you can have hundreds of megabytes of data stored in tables, but any usage that was ever mentioned for passt in the past ~5 years would seem to imply at most hundreds of kilobytes per table. Shifting complexity to the client is also a relevant topic for me, as we decided to have a binary client to avoid anything complicated (parsing) in the server. A shadow table allows us to shift even more complexity to the client, which is important for security. I haven't finished drafting a proposal based on this idea, but I plan to do it within one day or so. It won't be as detailed, because I don't think it's realistic to come up with all the details before writing any of the code (what's the point if you then have to throw away 70% of it?) but I hope it will be complete enough to provide a comparison. By the way, at least at a first approximation, closing and reopening listening sockets will mostly do the trick for anything our users (mostly via Podman) will ever reasonably want, so I have half a mind of keeping it like that in a first proposal, but indeed we should make sure there's a way around it, which is what is is taking me a bit more time to demonstrate.
[...]
# Suggested client workflow
I suggest the client should:
1. Parse all rule modifications 2. INSERT all new rules -> On error, DELETE them again 3. DEACTIVATE all removed rules -> Should only fail if the client has done something wrong 4. ACTIVATE all new rules -> On error (rule conflict): DEACTIVATE rules we already ACTIVATEd ACTIVATE rules we already DEACTIVATEd DELETE rules we INSERTed 5. Check for bind errors (see details later) If there are failures we can't tolerate: DEACTIVATE rules we already ACTIVATEd ACTIVATE rules we already DEACTIVATEd DELETE rules we INSERTed 6. DELETE rules we DEACTIVATEd -> Should only fail if the client has done something wrong
DEACTIVATE comes before ACTIVATE to avoid spurious conflicts between new rules and rules we're deleting.
I think that gets us closeish to "as atomic as we can be", at least from the perspective of peers. The main case it doesn't catch is that we don't detect rule conflicts until after we might have removed some rules. Is that good enough?
I think it is absolutely fine as an outcome, but the complexity of error handling in this case is a bit worrying. This is exactly the kind of thing (and we discussed it already a couple of times) that made and makes me think that a shadow table is a better approach instead.
[...]
-- Stefano
On Thu, Mar 05, 2026 at 02:19:53AM +0100, Stefano Brivio wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:28:30 +1100 David Gibson
wrote: Most of today and yesterday I've spent thinking about the dynamic update model and protocol. I certainly don't have all the details pinned down, let alone any implementation, but I have come to some conclusions.
# Shadow forward table
On further consideration, I think this is a bad idea. To avoid peer visible disruption, we don't want to destroy and recreate listening sockets
(Side note: if it's just *listening* sockets, is this actually that bad?)
Well, it's obviously much less bad that interrupting existing connections. It does mean a peer attempting to connect at the wrong moment might get an ECONNREFUSED, as far as it knows, a permanent error.
that are associated with a forward rule that's not being altered.
After reading the rest of your proposal, as long as:
Doing that with a shadow table would mean we'd need to essentially diff the two tables as we switch. That seems moderately complex,
...this is the only downside (I can't think of others though), and I don't think it's *that* complex as I mentioned, it would be a O(n^2) step that can be probably optimised (via sorting) to O(n * log(m)) with n new rules and m old rules, cycling on new rules and creating listening sockets (we need this part anyway) unless we find (marking it somewhere temporarily) a matching one...
I wasn't particularly concerned about the computational cost. It was more that I couldn't quickly see a clear approach with unambiguous semantics. But, I think I came up with one now, see later.
and kind of silly when then client almost certainly have created the shadow table using specific adds/removes from the original table.
...even though this is true conceptually, at least at a first glance (why would I send 11 rules to add a single rule to a table of 10?), I think the other details of the implementation, and conceptual matters (such as rollback and two-step activation) make this apparent silliness much less relevant, and I'm more and more convinced that a shadow table is actually the simplest, most robust, least bug-prone approach.
Especially:
# Rule states / active bit
I think we *do* still want two stage activation of new rules:
...this part, which led to a huge number of bugs over the years in nft / nftables updates, which also use separate insert / activate / commit / deactivate / delete operations.
Huh, interesting. I wasn't aware of that, and it's pretty persuasive.
It's extremely complicated to grasp and implement properly, and you end up with a lot of quasi-diffing anyway (to check for duplicates in ranges, for example).
It makes much more sense in nftables because you can have hundreds of megabytes of data stored in tables, but any usage that was ever mentioned for passt in the past ~5 years would seem to imply at most hundreds of kilobytes per table.
Shifting complexity to the client is also a relevant topic for me, as we decided to have a binary client to avoid anything complicated (parsing) in the server. A shadow table allows us to shift even more complexity to the client, which is important for security.
I definitely agree in principle - what I wasn't convinced about was that the overall balance actually favoured the client, because of my concern over the complexity of that "diff"ing. But
I haven't finished drafting a proposal based on this idea, but I plan to do it within one day or so.
Actually, you convinced me already, so I can do that.
It won't be as detailed, because I don't think it's realistic to come up with all the details before writing any of the code (what's the point if you then have to throw away 70% of it?) but I hope it will be complete enough to provide a comparison.
By the way, at least at a first approximation, closing and reopening listening sockets will mostly do the trick for anything our users (mostly via Podman) will ever reasonably want, so I have half a mind of keeping it like that in a first proposal, but indeed we should make sure there's a way around it, which is what is is taking me a bit more time to demonstrate.
With some more thought I saw a way of doing the "diff" that looks pretty straightforward and reasonable. Moreover it's less churn of the existing code, and works nicely with close-and-reopen as an interim step. It even provides socket continuity for arbitrarily overlapping ranges in the old and new tables. For close and re-open, we can implement COMMIT as: 1. fwd_listen_close() on old table 2. fwd_listen_sync() on new table I think we can get socket continuity if by swapping the order of those steps and extending fwd_sync_one() to do: for each port: if <already opened>: nothing to do <new> else if <matching open socket in old table>: <new> steal socket for new table else: open/bind/listen new socket The "steal" would mark the fd as -1 in the old table so fwd_listen_close() won't get rid of it. I think the check for a matching socket in the old table will be moderately expensive O(n), but not so much as to be a problem in practice.
[...]
# Suggested client workflow
I suggest the client should:
1. Parse all rule modifications 2. INSERT all new rules -> On error, DELETE them again 3. DEACTIVATE all removed rules -> Should only fail if the client has done something wrong 4. ACTIVATE all new rules -> On error (rule conflict): DEACTIVATE rules we already ACTIVATEd ACTIVATE rules we already DEACTIVATEd DELETE rules we INSERTed 5. Check for bind errors (see details later) If there are failures we can't tolerate: DEACTIVATE rules we already ACTIVATEd ACTIVATE rules we already DEACTIVATEd DELETE rules we INSERTed 6. DELETE rules we DEACTIVATEd -> Should only fail if the client has done something wrong
DEACTIVATE comes before ACTIVATE to avoid spurious conflicts between new rules and rules we're deleting.
I think that gets us closeish to "as atomic as we can be", at least from the perspective of peers. The main case it doesn't catch is that we don't detect rule conflicts until after we might have removed some rules. Is that good enough?
I think it is absolutely fine as an outcome, but the complexity of error handling in this case is a bit worrying. This is exactly the kind of thing (and we discussed it already a couple of times) that made and makes me think that a shadow table is a better approach instead.
I'll work on a more concrete proposal based on the shadow table approach. There are still some wrinkles with how to report bind() errors with this scheme to figure out. -- David Gibson (he or they) | I'll have my music baroque, and my code david AT gibson.dropbear.id.au | minimalist, thank you, not the other way | around. http://www.ozlabs.org/~dgibson
participants (2)
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David Gibson
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Stefano Brivio